On Friday, I have a 2 hour conversation with a very distressed novice investor, in tears, telling me the sad story of her property investing career.

To give some context to this story ...  this lady is a highly educated, intelligent, and professional person.Her story started two years ago when a friend recommended her to a father and son "mentoring" team.

She was desperate to get into property, and, after being driven around the area to be shown all the properties they allegedly owned, she agreed with them to a mentoring programme of 8 hours a month for the cost of £900.00 per month.

The father and son were to come around to her house for two hours per week, and then be on hand via email and telephone to support her.

The first mentoring session was all about "getting into the millionaire mindset".  This involved repeating phrases, rubbing her ears, etc. like we saw on the BBC 2 programme.  No mention of property, deal stacking, due diligence.

The second mentoring session was all about "dealing with her impatient personality".  This involved further exercises including putting an elastic band on her wrist tightly to remind her not to be impatient.  No mention of property, deal stacking, due diligence.

The third session was more of the same.  No mention of property, deal stacking, due diligence.  There was no after support or phone calls or emails between times and the son was rarely there, as he was off "buying property". She started to get concerned.

She had an existing property that she wanted to sell to release funds.  Unfortunately, it would not sell.The father and son mentoring team suggested that she get it "staged".  They brought in their relative who "staged" it and charged the newbie £4.5K for the privilege.  The property still did not sell.

The father and son duo then said that the property was not selling and that it was due to "evil spirits blocking the energy of the property".They recommended a white witch or "geomancer" to come in and unblock the property at the cost of £350.

The witch (the wife of one of the pair) came and unblocked the property.  She reported that there was a 751 year old evil spirit of a dead man in the property.  There was also a 57 year old spirit of a dead cat that had been buried in the garden that was causing a problem.  She claim that she had removed these evil spirits.



The geomancer also claimed that the investor herself had poisoned the house with negative vibes and these needed to be cleared.  The novice investor found all this very distressing and could not talk to her husband about it as she was worried what he might say.

Finally, after dropping the price, the property sold and released some equity.£20+K of this money went on further mentoring, aborted deals, intro fees, etc.  She eventually got into two low end properties over 300 miles from her home.  These are in very poor areas, and are a constant hassle.  One was meant to be refurbed by the mentoring duo as part of the deal which she paid for, but that never happened.

The novice investor lived in a property valued in the region of £1 million.  The mentoring duo recommended and advised that she release equity from this property to buy more property.  They sent out a mortgage broker who recommended that she attempted to get the property valued at £1.3 million.  Three different mortgage applications were submitted and three different valuers sent out by three different lenders, each one was attempted to "talk up" the value of the property, but this failed.  The lenders got wind of these tactics and refused to lend.  One lender finally agreed to an equity release at the lowest valuation.

More money was released.More of this money was lost on dodgy deals that fell through, attempts to get NMD deals through, which failed etc.The novice investor decided to complain to her mentors.  As soon as she did, they shut down all communication with her and never contacted or communicated with her again.  Despite this, she still considers them "nice people"!

She subsequently joined Property Tribes and learned how to do due diligence on people. 

She discovered that this father and son team were not the millionaire property investors they portrayed themselves to be and in fact had a trail of failed ventures and credit problems behind them.

I have recounted this story to the best of my memory.  There is a lot , lot more that went on, but I only wanted to get across the highlights in this summary.

I have asked the novice investor to write up the full story and I will post it on her behalf.She was very distressed and angry at herself for being taken in for so long.  I tried to calm her down and suggested to her that the biggest issue here was that she had been a bad judge of people.

She decided to reveal her story to me after she saw the BBC 2 programme as she saw herself in a lot of the newbies being sucked in by promises of riches and an easy life.

Throughout her many "mentoring" sessions, she never stacked a single deal, due diligence was never mentioned, negotiation techniques never discussed, and property and tenant management & compliance never alluded to.

What astounds me about this story is how this highly intelligent, educated, and professional lady was strung along for so long.  She admits this and is taking responsibility.  She would also like her story shared as a salutory lesson to other novices who are thinking of getting involved in property, the moral of the story surely being "be careful who you trust".

Incidentally, she has decided not to ask for her money back as she is "scared" of these two men.

Shocked at that Graham, I am so pleased that this lady has at last got access to know how and support she needs after her experiences.

Stepping out into new ventures always brings "what ifs" and hesitancy/ fear, it is natural that we reach out to others if they appear to offer guidance or are a little further forward on the path.

It just seems that this lady has been unlucky in her choice of mentor/ coach, there are many people who have had great results from properly structured coaching and mentoring.

I have a feeling I know who the team are but I wont name them if we are not doing that.

I just wish this lady all the very best for the future

How about niave and trusting?We all know people like that.I also think Clottie has raised a good point.  Many people work in secret from their partner and have to suffer alone when things go wrong.  I am sure they only did it to make a better life for themselves and their family, and, when it goes wrong, they are too afraid to confess to their partner.I would urge anyone in this situation to confide in your partner and let them help you through it.  They might be angry at first, but it is better to bring them into the picture, than continue to exclude them imho ... for the sakes of both parties.It is not a wind up either.  She read the geomancer report to me over the phone.  It was several pages long and described in detail all the evil spirits in the house, their history, etc.  I have also known her for about a year and I first met her at the Property Investor Show where she was assisting on the stand of these two men.

Hi V 

You say:

To give some context to this story ...  this lady is a highly educated, intelligent, and professional person.

Whilst feeling sorry for her plight it raises for me what kind of intelligence she has got.

Her IQ may be high but her EQ ( emotional quotient) I fear may be low.

In my previous life I came across many successful  people in what may be considered the `traditional` sense

ie... well paid jobs, good IQ, well educated,  nice house, nice car 2.2 kids etc  etc

But their EQ was sometimes all over the shop and they often made messy decisions about people

Many of my LHA tenants are by no stretch of the imagination  highly educated. The often have low IQ`s and are non professional but they are very street wise and in touch with the world in other ways. They would have seen this so called mentoring team coming a mile off and shown them the door.

What worries me is that yes many people can learn practical stuff and add to their knowledge through research practice and education. They also know what they dont know. But some people appear to retain a sense of naivety disproportionately to their age  throughout their adult life and how ever much you try to point this out to them and raise their awareness they dont seem to be able to always shake it off . As such they will always be susceptible to suggestion and certain people will take advantage of this. I wish i knew the cure. 

That's a kind comment Richard.  Thank you.  I think this lady just wanted someone to listen.  There is little I can do to offer her support, other than a shoulder to cry on.I hope PT is a place where people can come for support from the community.Comments like Graham's are unhelpful and uncaring.    How about PREDATORY and UNSCRUPLOUS about the two men in the story?.  Giving financial advice when they are not FSA registered etc.  Leaching more and more money off this poor lady ... I happen to know family friends who have lost money to different schemes, not just property, and I will offer them the same support as I endeavour to offer here.  As long as they learn from their experience, they can move on.We will not mention the names of these men.  They know who they are and what they did and they will have to live with a complete lack of integrity which is punishment enough.  I believe that they will get their just desserts in the end due to kharmic revolutions.  I want to focus on why and how someone was taken for a lot of money, so that others might learn to do due diligence, see the warning signs etc. With regards to the geomancer, I must admit, I struggled to see how she could have fallen for that, and, in hindsight, the lady said she could not believe it either.  However, at the time, she was worried and confused and believed these men, so she just went with it.  I think we can see into the mindset of someone who has placed trust in others and see how they might behave in such a way under duress.  A bit like people who lent even more money to PM, even though he hadn't delivered on his original promises?  I think they end up kidding themselves, because they know, in their heart, that it's not working, but they don't want to believe it?

Fair enough Graham.  But there is "blinded by greed" and "wanting to make a better life for yourself and your family" and maybe the boundaries are blurred at times?

Clottie,I did make some recommendations to this lady along those lines.  But I won't be naming these two men on the forum.  They are two separate issues.Also - nothing to do with a forehead decoration.   Jonathan - valued thoughts, thank you for sharing them.  I hope this will evolve into a valuable discussion.

Clottie,

If only you would take the same stance when you talk about your friend LENS GRORNTMANG (not his real name) and his outrageous conduct and carouselling of money resulting in more and more rip offs.

Mark my words when this breaks it will be the biggest story in property of the decade.  Susanne said:

Vanessa  says     "" They know who they are and what they did and they will have to live with a complete lack of integrity which is punishment enough.""

that is absolutely NOT punishment enough in the eyes of many people V.

I utterly understand that you and Nick do not want the hassle of litigious postings and all the bother that entails, but, please allow others, who don't quite have your karmic belief,  to recommend that folks like this be reported to the police, and not just left to rub their hands in glee at another naive punter lining their pockets with cash.

If Tamsin Barks had not undertaken her campaign with such vigour, Inside Track would not be in Court today......

It takes two to commit a con....  and yes i have been conned in my  life.... and each party is responsible in part. But, and in spite of my earlier comments,  i believe the perpetrators of such scams are the party with most responsibility, and  should be brought to justice where at all possible - otherwise more unscrupulous scammers continue the sorry saga....

The GRQ schemes prey on the vulnerable. 

These people are nothing more than con men. When they get a rich victim, they will focus their efforts and bleed them dry - once the carcass is stripped, off they go to the next person.

I hate conmen of all types. However, they are successful because they are very good at it. Effectively liars, plausible cover stories, explaining to people what they want to hear. I've fallen prey to conmen in the past and as well as the financial loss, it does call you to question your own character in terms of "was it my fault".

These people should be exposed and brought to book. 

If you wrote this as a TV drama it would be dismissed as being totally unbelievable.

I'm puzzled how her husband didn't know. They were having valuers traipsing round the property and 2 strange men visiting her each week. Very confusing. also, if they eventually raised finance on the residential home then surely he would be involved in that? I appreciate that we don't have all the details here though.

Anyway, I tend to agree with Graham's view to be honest. How can anyone dress this up as anything but utter stupidity.?Just because someone is 'well educated' it doesnt mean they've learned much. it just means they've been exposed to good education. Jonathan's comments about being streetwise or not are spot on.

Also, we are told the lady is 'professional' - I.m not sure what to make of that. I think I know what is meant - but then again, professional is such a woolly word. We were also told that she's 'intelligent'. Well she isn't intelligent when it comes to spotting when she's blatantly being scammed.

4.5k on staging - ok. Obviously a big mistake too.

And those infuriating evil blocking spirits can be a real nuisance can't they when a house wont sell? Thank goodness for white witches I always say. Obviously this white witch wasn't up to much, and that much maligned practice of pricing competitively had to be resorted to in the end.

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

This lady needs saving from herself it seems. I'm sorry to say that she probably isn't cut out for this potentially, shark-infested business.Even if she manages to secure deals profitably, will she be cute enough to deal with bad tenants? dodgy agents? unscrupulous tradespeople? Based on what we've been told, I wouldn't be overly confident for her. Her overly trusting nature will make her lamb for slaughter sorry to say.

And she still thinks they are nice people!

One positive note to end, the fact she is still up for getting on in property tells us she's determined.

And yes, if all this is true and can be substantiated then why not let us know who these con artists are? That, in itself, will be a very positive force.