Im taking over a landlords property which is already tenanted so don't blame me for allowing such a terrible tenant in the house. Anyway one tenant send me a text saying that when he leaves he will excrement (poop) all over the beds. (This isn't a child, its a 25 year old man). because I will be raising the prices soon.

Its just weird.

Anyway, I have the text as proof so was wondering would this be a criminal offence? (not only doing it but actually threatening to). I don't think he will do it but I want to punish him for threatening to do it. Is there some law about this? Harrasment of landlord perhaps? or abuse?

I know the police wont take it that seriously but to be honest I want to get this guy in some trouble legally.

At a real stretch there is possibly an offence of `threats to commit criminal damage`. Excrement depending on its consistency may be removable without too much problem so that no lasting material damage is in fact caused. However if the perpetrator has had for instance a stomach virus the night before the resulting product could produce a more liquid consistancy causing unsavory seepage into the internal components of the mattress. If this is sufficient to render it unusable for the purpose it was intended then the offence of criminal damage would be complete. If carried out then the police could intervene as it was a deliberate or reckless act as opposed to being accidental damage which could be taken off the deposit if the mattress needed replacing

Criminal harrassment would require you to demonstrate a course of conduct rather than just one single occurrence.

I would be inclined to have a chat with him and say what he is proposing is totally inappropriate and that on this occasion you will not call the police but you will keep the txt as evidence should he repeat his threats or indeed does carry out the act.
This may make him realise the error of his ways. It gives him a get out clause. Try to find out why he made the threat. He may be unhappy by the way the previous agent dealt with him. Show him you are different.

You are right the police would not probably act on this information at this point. You dont want to wind him up too much by involving them at this stage as it sounds as he has an infantile approach to life and may be capable of carrying this out and doing far worse if he is antagonised by a bobby turning up at his door to have a word.

If you were managing my property i certainly would not want you to go to the police with this complaint for fear of escalating the problem.

I like Wayne Dyer. He's an inspirational writer and a great speaker.

I was listening to a cd set of his yesterday, on which he made this point:

We cannot always control what happens to us, or what others say or do; but the one thing we can control is how we react to it.

He says: "Every morning as I'm having a shave, I look in the mirror and I say to myself: 'No-one is going to spoil this day for me; this is my day! I just know that someone's going to cut me up on the road (they're probably getting up now too and already planning it!), and this person's going to try and wind me up this way and that person that... But they're not going to get at me - I won't let them."

He says: "When people whine and complain, even if it's about something I've done (like being late), I won't own that. When I reply to their complaint, I will just calmly repeat it back to them and say 'you are very upset about that'. It's like a volley ball. It's their cr*p that they are throwing your way. Then what are you going to do with that? Are you going to keep it and smear it all over yourself? Allow it to become your problem? Own it? Or are you just going to throw it right back to them? It's theirs!"

The point is in this case for example, you might (unless you choose to ignore) reply to him: "You are very upset about the rent going up, and you are going to sh*t all over the bed. I see that you're very upset about it." Remain calm and leave it at that. Don't own it. It's his sh*t, in this case literally!

Don't get emotionally sucked in to someone who is clearly a mentally inefffective person (and could be mentally ill). Remain calm and stick with the facts. Whatever he produces will be cleaned away after he leaves. You may or may not be a few quid out of pocket depending on the deposit situation etc, but it's no big deal.

Angela

Hi Greg,

Welcome to Property Tribes.

Your headline is a great antidote to "get rich quick through property" fever!!

My approach would be to text him back and say that you are sorry the tenant feels like that, and remind him that any dilapidations or excessive cleaning will be deducted from his deposit.

I would not involve the police or start a "pi**ing match" of "if you do that, I will do this .... ", as it could escalate.

Remain calm and professional and say that, at the end of the tenancy, you will be meeting with him at the property to check him out and reconcile the inventory.

I suspect it is all "hot air" and the best thing to do in these situations is play it with a straight bat, remain calm and professional, and leave it to him to carry out his threat if that is what he wants to do.

At the end of the day, faeces is organic matter and can be disposed of/removed.

(19-08-2012 08:41 AM)Angela Bryant Wrote:  I like Wayne Dyer. He's an inspirational writer and a great speaker.

I was listening to a cd set of his yesterday, on which he made this point:

We cannot always control what happens to us, or what others say or do; but the one thing we can control is how we react to it.

He says: "Every morning as I'm having a shave, I look in the mirror and I say to myself: 'No-one is going to spoil this day for me; this is my day! I just know that someone's going to cut me up on the road (they're probably getting up now too and already planning it!), and this person's going to try and wind me up this way and that person that... But they're not going to get at me - I won't let them."

He says: "When people whine and complain, even if it's about something I've done (like being late), I won't own that. When I reply to their complaint, I will just calmly repeat it back to them and say 'you are very upset about that'. It's like a volley ball. It's their cr*p that they are throwing your way. Then what are you going to do with that? Are you going to keep it and smear it all over yourself? Allow it to become your problem? Own it? Or are you just going to throw it right back to them? It's theirs!"

The point is in this case for example, you might (unless you choose to ignore) reply to him: "You are very upset about the rent going up, and you are going to sh*t all over the bed. I see that you're very upset about it." Remain calm and leave it at that. Don't own it. It's his sh*t, in this case literally!

Don't get emotionally sucked in to someone who is clearly a mentally inefffective person (and could be mentally ill). Remain calm and stick with the facts. Whatever he produces will be cleaned away after he leaves. You may or may not be a few quid out of pocket depending on the deposit situation etc, but it's no big deal.

Angela

What a great post Angela.

Greg, Its only business and while I can understand why you are offended by his threat its best to remember that many tenants feel powerless and if this guy is facing a rent increase that he cannot afford he may be reacting to the fact that "You have all the power". Nobody is at their best when they feel that others are controlling their lives and people often become agressive as a knee jerk reaction. You say that you want to punish him - what worse punishment than reducing his disposable income or in fact taking his home away?Can you imagine how low a person feels if the only defence he has is to empty his bowel?

this case I would proceed as planned by either enforcing the rent increase or taking Possession Preceedings in accordance with your landlords instructions, don't dance to this mans tune. I would not even acknowledge receipt of that text and if he mentioned it I would say "I must have missed that one" and make no comment on his threat.

When he moves out if he does what he is suggesting - the mattress needs to be replaced and the room aired but you wil have Possession. Hardly a victory for the tenant and a story for your memoires. If you really want "pay back" register him here free and warn other landlords not to take him http://www.landlordreferencing.co.uk/

Follow me on Twitter @landlordtweets

Thanks for that graphic description Jonathan, somehow that chocolate gateaux and chocolate sauce we've got for after our BBQ later just doesn't seem quite so appealing now

(19-08-2012 12:19 PM)Mary Latham Wrote:  What a great post Angela.

Greg, Its only business and while I can understand why you are offended by his threat its best to remember that many tenants feel powerless and if this guy is facing a rent increase that he cannot afford he may be reacting to the fact that "You have all the power". Nobody is at their best when they feel that others are controlling their lives and people often become agressive as a knee jerk reaction. You say that you want to punish him - what worse punishment than reducing his disposable income or in fact taking his home away?Can you imagine how low a person feels if the only defence he has is to empty his bowel?

this case I would proceed as planned by either enforcing the rent increase or taking Possession Preceedings in accordance with your landlords instructions, don't dance to this mans tune. I would not even acknowledge receipt of that text and if he mentioned it I would say "I must have missed that one" and make no comment on his threat.

When he moves out if he does what he is suggesting - the mattress needs to be replaced and the room aired but you wil have Possession. Hardly a victory for the tenant and a story for your memoires. If you really want "pay back" register him here free and warn other landlords not to take him http://www.landlordreferencing.co.uk/

Follow me on Twitter @landlordtweets

Thanks Mary,

I think your post is spot on and I like the way your thoughts so naturally turn to compassion:

"Can you imagine how low a person feels if the only defence he has is to empty his bowel?"

I used to childmind a boy who at 5 years old sometimes pooped in his pants. It wasn't very nice to deal with but I felt sorry for him as I knew he was emotionally disturbed at the time and that it was a cry for help.

We also had a tenant in our one & only HMO who once sh*t on the stairs, as another tenant informed us. Everyone was suitably disgusted; but he was a hopeless alcoholic and as it turned out, he was dead within a year.

Wayne Dyer also says: "You may not always feel you can give love to others that maybe have wronged you; but you can respond with the love that you are."

Angela

(18-08-2012 06:25 PM)greg6 Wrote:  ...to be honest I want to get this guy in some trouble legally.

Two observations.

1. Stop letting it get to you. Being a landlord can have some bad days. Just ignore the negative. Most of it will not be remembered, and that which is remembered will likely be a great story for other landlords when you are in the pub.

2. Maybe confirmation that the seller was shifting their problem to you. Hopefully you got a great price when you purchased the property. Alternatively, focus on vacant possession next time.

Hi
What a delightful tenant! I would cancel the Section 13 notice (increasing the rent) and serve a Section 21 notice instead to get rid of them as soon as possible.

Why? Well - I expect my tenants to pay their rent on time and to also show respect towards me and my property and treat it as if it were their own. Threatening to s@@T on the bed shows complete disrespect .... and a Section 21 would quickly follow from me.

Good Luck ....

Mark

(19-08-2012 08:41 AM)Angela Bryant Wrote:  I like Wayne Dyer. He's an inspirational writer and a great speaker.

I was listening to a cd set of his yesterday, on which he made this point:

We cannot always control what happens to us, or what others say or do; but the one thing we can control is how we react to it.

He says: "Every morning as I'm having a shave, I look in the mirror and I say to myself: 'No-one is going to spoil this day for me; this is my day! I just know that someone's going to cut me up on the road (they're probably getting up now too and already planning it!), and this person's going to try and wind me up this way and that person that... But they're not going to get at me - I won't let them."

He says: "When people whine and complain, even if it's about something I've done (like being late), I won't own that. When I reply to their complaint, I will just calmly repeat it back to them and say 'you are very upset about that'. It's like a volley ball. It's their cr*p that they are throwing your way. Then what are you going to do with that? Are you going to keep it and smear it all over yourself? Allow it to become your problem? Own it? Or are you just going to throw it right back to them? It's theirs!"

Angela

Having read that I've decided I don't like Wayne Dwyer. First para - fine. Second para - ouch.

To deal with a problem that you have caused by attempting to project it onto someone else seems to me to be manipulative and somewhat dishonest, like a Tony Blair 'projected apology' - 'I'm really sorry that you are offended' rather than 'I'm sorry I made a mistake'.

If friend Wayne doesn't admit to his own mistakes and take responsibility for them, rather trying to pretend that others need to do so, he'll never learn from them, and will be locked in a permanently descending spiral of psychobabble.

Ugh.

ML