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  • Property-a-holics

    Bankrupt wealth creation experts - should the property community care?

    An imfamous guru is back after a long absence and he's acting like nothing is wrong, posting on forums and dishing out "advice" and guidance. Butter wouldn't melt.

    There's just the small matter that he went bust with millions of other people's money.

    His USP was "trust", which, clearly he does not deserve and perhaps never did.

    So, how should the on-line community treat him now:

    1. Forgive and forget.

    2. Completely ignore him.

    3. Challenge him on what happened to his clients money and ask for an explanation.

    4. Warn others about him.

    5. Let karma deal with him.

    6. He's the wealth creation industry, so nothing to do with property and not relevant to this forum.

    7. You can't protect people from themselves, so let him get on with it.

    8. Educate people about "method" and due diligence rather than individuals so that they can make informed choices.

    9. The clue is in "bankrupt" and "wealth creation" so no one can possibly take him seriously.

    10. Let him share his knowledge, it still might be valuable. But don't do business with him.

    I ask, because Andy Shaw of Passive Investments had 17 bankrupted companies behind him when he started Passive ... which should have given some indication of his ability to achieve success. His business model was also completely flawed and it was obvious it would end in tears.

    To be clear, I am not criticising anyone who has gone bankrupt through poor trading conditions, naiveity, etc. I am fully aware that many successful people have gone bankrupt on their journey to success and that these lessons taught them how to be successful. Bankruptcy should not be the end, as long as someone is not allowed to replicate their errors all over again.

    I am questioning people who went bankrupt to achieve their own dreams at the expense of other people's dreams.

    Should we be concerned or bothered?

    I go for No. 5 & 6 & 8 .. how about you?
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    V,
    I would go with you on 5,6 & 8, but If you opportunity arose i would add 4 and 3.
    To put them in order i would go 8,6, 4, 3 & 5.

    I struggle with the term 'guru' to, It always makes me cringe.

    Phil Stewardson.
    Stewardson Developments Ltd.
    http://www.stewardson Developments Ltd.
    @philstewardson.
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    Phil Stewardson.

    Stewardson Properties.

    Stewardson Developments Ltd.

    Burson Land Ltd. & Jennings & Gilchreaste Ltd.

    https://www.stewardson.co.uk

    Follow me on twitter - @philstewardson

    Thanks for your thoughts Phil.

    Yes, the word "guru" makes me cringe too, but these people (rightly or wrongly) attain status that some of them are not worthy of.

    Much of it comes from their own ego but I have seen new people flocking around them with stars in their eyes and hanging off their every word. They don't want to hear the truth, they want to believe the spiel of the person at the front of the room telling them that they'll be a millionaire in 12 months.

    It is evident from other forums that these wealth creation experts flock together and keep defences up so that no one can challenge them. They police & protect themselves to an extent, as if one is challenged or criticised or found to be at fault, then it brings them all into question, and they cannot afford for that to happen.

    When they look at the bankrupted guru in question they see themselves reflected in some way .. or they would take a stand against him in my opinion ... or at least distance themselves.
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    Nope! Andy Shaw is still in the GRQ industry.

    He now sells books about mindset.

    From his website:

    But then the credit crunch came along and sales in the business dried up and became non-existent. I could not release equity in my properties when they still had some. Then the inevitable happened and we couldn't prevent the train wreck from occurring. Quite suddenly and very publicly we failed

    For a while, my business partner and I were reviled by many and it was one of the most difficult times of my life. Because of my skills I could have easily gone away and made a reasonable life for myself and my family. However, I had no intention of stopping, I am someone who finds opportunities everywhere. I knew that our failure and bankruptcy was an event and that I was just between riches. Deep down inside I knew I was destined for success - perhaps you feel like that too?

    I had previously studied the best books on business, success and particularly mindset. I immersed myself in it all and practiced what I was learning and things I created to help myself and slowly, very slowly, I started to rebuild my life.

    I wanted to share with you what I have learned - from the good bits and particularly from the bad bits.

    So I wrote two books called "Creating A Bug Free Mind" & "Using A Bug Free Mind."


    That all sounds very plausible, and I am sure he has a lot to contribute about "mindset" ... except that he blames the credit crunch for his failure rather than himself.

    Surely, taking personal responsibility for what happened is the only way to start again with integrity and stand a chance of achieving your goals?
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    Is he a Banned Director?
    ... If not then I wish him best if he starts a company up.

    Is he just posting on Forums?
    ... A wise man with lots of experience, I would love to here his opinions without point scoring.

    Due-diligence.
    ... Would I invest in any projects he is involved with. Highly Unlikely as I do a lot of Due Diligence before I jump into anything.

    Time Served
    ... Is he discharged bankrupt, if so. Like convicts his time is served. The money invested is gone and no getting it back. Point scoring is pointless.

    No 8 for me.

    ----------------

    Business is about calculated risk and bankruptcy is the other side of the coin to success. But "17 bankrupted companies" ouch!
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    (03-08-2012 02:39 PM)Adam Hosker Wrote:  Is he a Banned Director?
    ... If not then I wish him best if he starts a company up.

    Is he just posting on Forums?
    ... A wise man with lots of experience, I would love to here his opinions without point scoring.

    Due-diligence.
    ... Would I invest in any projects he is involved with. Highly Unlikely as I do a lot of Due Diligence before I jump into anything.

    Time Served
    ... Is he discharged bankrupt, if so. Like convicts his time is served. The money invested is gone and no getting it back. Point scoring is pointless.

    No 8 for me.

    Adam,

    I find that many times I do not see things the same as you. This time around I would say we are very much aligned. I like your summary above. A 'thumbs up' for your post.

    I also think Vanessa line below is a good answer. Many of the other suggestions she posted just do not work for me.

    Surely, taking personal responsibility for what happened is the only way to start again with integrity and stand a chance of achieving your goals?


    Everyone makes mistakes. It is part of the human condition to try things that fail. That is how we learn to walk, etc. People do need to learn from their mistakes. People also have to take away the right lesson. Many times we get the message wrong so we actually learn the wrong lesson from the experience.
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    John Corey

    
Share your questions, learn from mistakes & crowdsource answers to your questions -> https://www.propertyfortress.com/community/
    Follow me on Twitter-> www.twitter.com/john_corey
    My blog -> www.PropertyFortress.com/blog
    RE investing discussions happening monthly in London, 2nd Tuesday of the month -> meetup.com/real-estate-advice
    Just been reminded about a previous chump, i mean guru....as an experiment Mark created a little video, which i hope i can now paste here...here goes.
    We could have a competition as to who its based on ....but perhaps not!







    Phil Stewardson.
    Stewardson Developments Ltd
    http://www.stewardson.co.uk
    @philstewardson
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    Phil Stewardson.

    Stewardson Properties.

    Stewardson Developments Ltd.

    Burson Land Ltd. & Jennings & Gilchreaste Ltd.

    https://www.stewardson.co.uk

    Follow me on twitter - @philstewardson

    Just to be clear, the wealth creation expert who has reappeared on forums giving advice is not Andy Shaw.

    I don't think he would dare show his face as he at least understands how disingenious it would be to talk about all your dreams and what you achieved for your family, while just a year ago, you stung people for millions to get those dreams ... and at the cost your clients dreams.

    The person I refer to has no conscience whatsoever, judging by his latest posts. He seems oblivious to the irony of him giving out advice and rejoining a community that he single handedly brought into disrepute, as he was associated with, and advocated by many other well known people. I suspect he owes money to a number of them as well but they won't speak out against their own.

    Again, the distinction between wealth creation and property investment caused confusion and muddied the waters.

    Education is always a good thing and I will strongly advocate that, but it's all getting mixed up under one roof , so to speak.
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    @Kamet,

    It's not about the actual person, it's about their behaviour and how it damages things for decent people and service providers.

    @John @Adam

    Yes, I liked Adam's post too. Good attitude to take.
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    Can we explore how people can do due diligence on wealth creation experts and portfolio builders?

    On this thread, some interesting points came to light.

    Excerpt: Linda told me several times during our conversations that she is in training with various wealth creation experts and that ... "X has over 100 properties" ... I replied "Well a reliable source told me that X only has 2 properties". But just as Linda was unable to prove to me that this person has X properties, I realised that I was unable to prove to her that they only had 2! And therein lies the problem. There is no way of checking, as far as I am aware? So a huge amount is taken on trust. Trust that has not been earned.

    1. How can you verify how many properties someone actually owns?

    Any money that unscrupulous companies do refund, they get the client to sign a NDA so that the client cannot ever speak about them again in the public domain. That is how a lid is kept on these companies that are not delivering on promises. They shut people down with litigation and NDA's.

    There are two other companies I know of that use this policy to keep a lid on things while they continue taking large sums of money off people. So due diligence does not always turn up the truth about a company. That is why it is important to understand the signs of a dodgy deal, more than a company.

    2. Searching the web does not necessarily turn up negative issues, because of the above. Two companies I know are currently spending a lot of money to clean up the internet of negative comments. A newbie might think "Well I can't find anything bad about them, so they must be okay".

    How else can newbies do due diligence?

    What indicators are there to look out for at Companies House, such as un-filed accounts. What are the warning signs?
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