Investing in property does not just involve investing £££, it involves investing time & energy wisely too.

Following Nick's blog on this topic, I am interested to explore this a bit more.

A couple of weeks ago, I spent 1.5 hours on the phone "consoling" an "investor" who had lost a lot of money to a deal sourcer who took large fees upfront but did not deliver.

Most of the 1.5 hours of the conversation involved him explaining to me the deal of the century that "nearly" came good for him, and how he was interested in a new deal that promised NMD and 15% return.

All this despite the fact that he had lost a significant amount of money on one of these "schemes" already. He still wanted to believe in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

In the end, I had to get tough with him. I told him that not only was he investing his time and energy in the wrong things, he was now starting to waste my time and energy, because he would not let go of this notion that that is quick and easy money to be made.

I suggested to him that he focus on the properties that he does have, understand them fully (as most of them he had never visited!), and ensure that they were performing to the max.

So, this leads me to talk about how you invest your time and energy and the returns you should expect.

Sometimes, when I hear of people spending two hours listening to a webinar about how to buy a property for £1, I wonder if they are investing in themselves or if their time and energy is actually being invested in the person giving the webinar?

And if the person giving the webinar is a successful person, what is their agenda to give a free webinar, as you can bet your bottom dollar (literally) that they will want an ROI on their time! (Nothing wrong in that either, as long as you understand the agenda).

And is it a good investment of your time, energy, and money to attend a "networking" event that is really a thinly disguised sales pitch. Your time should ideally be invested in "steak" not "sizzle".

It's tricky, because I am a great believer education, networking and in "80% of success is showing up". But I think you have to make wise choices as to the events you show up to.

Related discussion: In contemplation of the alluring upsell

As Nick says in his blog:

An investment in anything dictates time as well as money, and there is nothing wrong with this BUT investing your time in what ‘appears’ to be a clever investment could take you away from what you ‘should/can’ be doing.

One thing is for sure, only you can decide where you put your time, and another sure thing is that some people want to use your time to supplement theirs. The ego of the guru, as insecure as it is, will always want to devour your time.


What percentages of money, time and energy should you invest in property ... and should you invest these in yourself and things that help you move forwards, or invest them in other people's activities and still get a ROI?

Making wise decisions and understanding your ROI is vital to be successful with any investment .... but worth remembering that there is not just a monetary ROI demanded, but an ROI on your time and energy and where you invest that.

Care to discuss?

I think the ROI on your time and energy keeps changing as your own knowledge increases and your motives change

I started knowing say 5% about property investing ( in general) . I listened to people who knew 95%

Some gave their time for free and expected 0% ROI for their time in payment but just ROI with a pat on the back
Some gave their time for free but hoped for ROI in payment at a later stage maybe via a course / finders fee / sale etc
Some gave their time for hard cash up front
My knowledge increased to 10% 20% and so on and my ROI on my time translated into ROI in visible profits
Extremely hard to quantify exactly though how many hours = how many pounds

As I gradually increased my own knowledge base I noticed my ROI from others peoples time and knowledge decreased.
This was further complicated because I was focusing on a niche market ( LHA )
So I began to seek out other educators who specialised in that field but some were pretenders and they did not know and they bluffed their way through and wasted my time as they knew naff all about it!
It got harder and harder as there became fewer and fewer of them so my ROI of my time took a dip as I listened to many who could not teach me anything ( not their fault). I had to spend more time becoming more astute as to whose brains I chose to pick. Sometimes one small golden nugget gleaned would give massive ROI.

Now I`ve turned to be more the giver than the taker. Others have also naturally followed that path
The question is now how do i value my time and my ROI on that time.

With your example V the 1.5 hrs you gave to that investor has a worth.
You were in effect a financial / property counsellor and could charge him say £50 per hour for that session.
He may not have liked what he heard but on reflection your counselling could have potentially saved him £1000`s. Perhaps you will never know. Or perhaps you say the ROI on your time was worth it as you spent some time with him for free and he will tell his mates it was very helpful and they will go on PT more and it will grow and the sponsors will like that and the commercial benefits will come but in time. Or perhaps you will think - well he needed some advice it gave me a buzz to give him some help in his hour of need and maybe i will benefit maybe i wont but does it matter

Some property speakers on the stage love what they do and some hate it.

Some love the limelight and the adulation and the attention and the applause. They go home with the applause still ringing in their ears and they feel like a pop star and they are on a high. Their speech went down well and the ROI on their time and energy is well worth it in term of their validation as a person. Their egos ( which may or may not be fragile ) are soothed. Money might be a secondary minor objective. Being an actor on the stage is the primary motive.

Some are not so ebullient and fluent though. They are there to secure business and its something they have to force themselves to do in order to hopefully be successful. They may not get any business at the end their presentation, it maybe receives lacklustre applause and they are deflated and their ROI in terms of time and energy is negative.

Some are a bit of both and fall inbetween

Maybe the best ROI on ones time and energy initially is paying someone not involved in the property business at all and but just interested in you as a person and what makes you tick. Pay them to work out what type of person you are how you think how you react how you respond how you grow. Then armed with that knowledge you can begin to cut out all the journeys you may have otherwise made which would have lead you down a blind alley and wasted your time and energy and delivered zero or negative ROI. Beware the emotional vampires.

So the motto for the best ROI on your time and energy is maybe - Go and see a shrink to work out how you think

What utterly brilliant posts, I'm not even going to try to compete. Rarely do I read two posts where I agree with every word, this is one of those occasions.

I'm going to have a cuppa now and think through what the ROI is that I'm targeting with my time commitment to forums, this one and there are many others. I thought I knew, I now need to have a re-think.

Thanks both.

Regards

Mark Alexander
Founder of Property118.com

Thanks for such a fantastic and considered response J.

well he needed some advice it gave me a buzz to give him some help

That sums it up.

I was happy to help for the sake of helping. I believe in karma and I am sure I will be rewarded somewhere down the line in some way!!! It was actually reward enough to hear this chap say "Thanks Vanessa. No one has ever talked to me so frankly, kicked my butt in such a nice way, and not tried to sell me something! I definitely needed to be told this".

I am waiting for people to challenge us about Property Tribes and the time, energy, and money we have invested in this community.

Why did we do it for three years for nothing? They wonder at our motivation. Some accused us of getting affiliate commissions, doing deals "under the table" etc, etc, etc ... but there was a much bigger picture than selling the integrity of PT for what amounts to chump change.

We didn't run PT for 3 years for nothing. Our ROI was a long term strategy, not instant gratification.

We invested time in building PT because we learned so much ourselves and we learned how to facilitate community, both of which can be monetised outside of Property Tribes.

Now, three years later, we have something that we can monetise by getting the various tribes (categories) and key words sponsored. These do not compromise the integrity and original ethos of the forum.

In order to keep the forum free for users, we had to find another way to make it pay for itself, and this is the method we chose.

So the three years we gave for free are now being cashed in in a completely transparent and legitimate manner.

So sometimes your ROI is delayed, or it might come back to you in a way that you could never have imagined. That is sometimes the best ROI of all.

Hi Vanessa

Again you have taken the words out of my mouth.

My brother and I own a freehold reversionary interest in 6 flats in Portsmouth. We purchased the freehold bona vacantia from the Crown solicitors to protect our investment in a leasehold flat in the block when the freeholder went bust. It took two years to complete that deal but that's another story.

Anyhow, we have owned it for two years and other than insuring it we have done nothing. We haven't even collected the ground rents!

I told another landlord this who is a regular reader of my blogs on property118. She been managing freehold blocks for years apparently. She's also a massive fan of my blogs. We spoke on the telephone for the first time yesterday and I told her about our dilemma, i.e. we hadn't got a clue about managing the freeholds of blocks of flats. Her response bowled me over. She said, "Mark, I've learned so much from reading your blogs, please let me do something for you in return - I will manage them for you". Obviously I was grateful for the offer as I didn't know who else to ask. We chatted a bit more and then I asked the inevitable question "how much will you charge me?" OMG, I wouldn't dream of charging you Mark, she said, you have done so much for me without even realising it, you probably don't even know who I am. Well I do now, I checked her out, and let's just say I was gobsmacked, in a very positive way.

I had absolutely no idea that this lady was reading my blogs or benefiting from them, let alone expecting an ROI. As you've said though, it Karma.

Mark Alexander
Founder of Property118.com

I agree on both fronts - if anything £££s is just a tool so one can invest. To do it right one needs to be prepared to spend lots of time and effort gaining knowledge, then once the plunge is taken there is alot of time spent "managing" your investment.Perhaps more than some "reluctant" or first time landlords realise.
If every landlord was time and knowledge rich though, us lettings agent would soon be out of business!!!
On the Karma front - indeed, always invest in people if you can help them. I spent about 4 hours over 12-18 months discussing a layout plan for a block of flats with a building firm - I guess believeing I was doing it for my ego and own enjoyment whilst offering what help I could.Not a large time to invest but nonetheless not a few minutes.
I heard nothing for 12 months and then out of the blue we were then lucky enough to be given management of all 27 flats on completion of the build.

Great discussion here. I particularly like your post that I've quoted below, Vanessa.

I have been too busy to post much lately, not least because I took it upon myself to go and decorate a flat I bought to sell (150 miles away) after I was flabbergasted by the estimate I got for doing it.

"How hard can it be??!" thinks I, "A bit of painting!" I was moved to make three trips, staying one or two nights each time - on an airbed that I bought for less than a tenner, to add to the game of doing it cheaply! I sweated and swore; but I was quite pleased with my work.

Did you know that they play nothing but Number Ones on Heart radio at weekends? I do as I listened to it all weekend while painting!

My arms and shoulders were aching so much though by the end, it was painful to drive home:-(

It occurred to me (insofar as I was capable of thinking anything above the constant "baby, baby, babies" coming over the radio) that hard labour is sadly underpaid. It did give me a greater appreciation of all the work that others normally do for me though - thankfully!

I later bemoaned to my mother-in-law that someone had wanted me to pay them £10 / hour but with travelling and hotel expenses, it translated into more like £20 ! She said if I wanted any workers in future, she could ask her neighbour for me who is employing a team of Polish workers to work on their extension. They ask for nothing more than £50 per day and do up to 12 hour days!

That really brought it home to me that I was wasting my time being a painter & decorator! Although I consider it valuable to add to my experience bank an appreciation of what's involved:-)

I often remember what you once said Vanessa "embrace randomness!" I think as entrepreneurs we just have to learn to 'let go'. As you said about running PT for three years 'for nothing', though all the while you knew you had a greater vision and you were on the path, learning as you go.

My view is that the tighter people cling to how much money they want to make (or save!) 'per hour', the less they will make in the long run. Conversely, the more we let go of that outlook, the more money we can make in the long run.

Along the way, we must be prepared to embrace randomness as we never know which bits of the puzzle will fall into place where... I guess it's all about having faith.

Angela

(06-09-2012 03:18 PM)vanessa warwick Wrote:  Thanks for such a fantastic and considered response J.

well he needed some advice it gave me a buzz to give him some help

That sums it up.

I was happy to help for the sake of helping. I believe in karma and I am sure I will be rewarded somewhere down the line in some way!!! It was actually reward enough to hear this chap say "Thanks Vanessa. No one has ever talked to me so frankly, kicked my butt in such a nice way, and not tried to sell me something! I definitely needed to be told this".

I am waiting for people to challenge us about Property Tribes and the time, energy, and money we have invested in this community.

Why did we do it for three years for nothing? They wonder at our motivation. Some accused us of getting affiliate commissions, doing deals "under the table" etc, etc, etc ... but there was a much bigger picture than selling the integrity of PT for what amounts to chump change.

We didn't run PT for 3 years for nothing. Our ROI was a long term strategy, not instant gratification.

We invested time in building PT because we learned so much ourselves and we learned how to facilitate community, both of which can be monetised outside of Property Tribes.

Now, three years later, we have something that we can monetise by getting the various tribes (categories) and key words sponsored. These do not compromise the integrity and original ethos of the forum.

In order to keep the forum free for users, we had to find another way to make it pay for itself, and this is the method we chose.

So the three years we gave for free are now being cashed in in a completely transparent and legitimate manner.

So sometimes your ROI is delayed, or it might come back to you in a way that you could never have imagined. That is sometimes the best ROI of all.

Thanks Angela.

Great post and good to have you back. I did miss you!

Sometimes I have found that doing things "on the cheap" ends up costing more in the long run, although I appreciate that your decorating experience has given you insights into where best to spend your time, as time is a currency, and we only have a finite amount of it, so need to spend it wisely.

Thank you for quoting my "embrace randomness".

I am a big fan of random, but I think many people fear it or think it will take them off course.

Entrepreneurs, in particular, need to embrace randomness as to do so ignites serendipity (in my experience).

Embracing randomness has no obvious ROI so it can be a leap of faith but one that I am happy to take.

A post that relates to this was 12 things successful people do differently where my friend, Tom Evans, shared views on goal setting. He is of the opinion that people should set "learning goals", not actual goals like "buy one property per month". His theory was that it was much more flexible and serendipitious and brought the right people into your life who could help you.

Your decorating goal was a learning goal in hindsight!

Now I`ve turned to be more the giver than the taker.

OOr perhaps you will think - well he needed some advice it gave me a buzz to give him some help in his hour of need and maybe i will benefit maybe i wont but does it
[/quote]

Jonathon, fab post matey......... I mean absolutely fab post....

Hi Lee,

Thanks for commenting.

I think it's so important to be a net contributor in any area of life.

If you are "giving" rather than "taking", it opens up a whole new world and, as I said, serendipity ignites.

The social web allows us to understand who is sharing for the sake of sharing, who is sharing because they want something back, and who takes but never gives.

In property, we need to surround ourselves with like-minded people who share our values and ethics and the transparency of the web allows us to understand people's agendas and motivations and whether they are authentic or not.

It was a SUPERB post by J.C. I hope he considers writing a book as he has such an engaging writing style and so much knowledge to share. How about it Jonathan?!?!

You could create a book of all your posts on Property Tribes!!