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  • Property-a-holics

    #S21HQ - Section 21 turning into Catch 22



    I think the Fergus Wilson "Panorama" documentary is the writing on the wall for Section 21.

    The Government may try and counter landlords leaving the sector by removing S21.  It is just a matter of time.

    For the future, they certainly won't want "super-landlords" with hundreds of properties being able to impact the local market as much as Fergus Wilson's retirement appeared to have done in Kent.

    A friend of mine with around 100 properties said, that if S21 is abolished, he will sell up.

    Yesterday, at the Landlord Investment Show in London, I met several landlords who were severely affected by Section 24 and were really struggling to think of a way to hold on to their portfolios, that they had spent many, many years building up.  It was sad to hear their stories. 

    They were all decent, hard working individuals who provided high standards of accommodation and genuinely cared about their tenants.  Some described how they had had tenants for many years - one for 14 years - and that they were coming to the realisation that they may have to sell up.

    An obvious and simple solution to the problem of landlords leaving the sector is to stop Section 24 being retrospective.

    Another option could be for landlords to be required to sell their properties with tenants in situ to another landlord.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    *It was suggested that a new tribe be created for the topic of S21 under threat, but instead I have created a hash tag #S21HQ which can be searched on to silo this topic.



    SEE ALSO  -        Direction of travel of the PRS

    UP NEXT -            #S21HQ - antisocial behaviour evictions

    DON'T MISS -       Generation Rent launch campaign to end S21 

    NOW WATCH:

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    Ending S21 could have huge effect

    My own guess is we will see the end of AST

    All political parties have landlords on their radar

    I keep saying this

    We are going to see rent controls, a new AST,  and some form of licence

    The landlord redress scheme will come too

    I strongly believe BTL is going to become a business not an investment

    Some will want a business others will not and they will leave us.

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    Learn Change and Adapt ?????

    All comments are for casual information purposes only. If you wish to rely on any advice I have given please ensure you obtain independent specialist advice from a third party. No liability is accepted for comments made.


    The government have caused the problem through S24 and universal credit.  They have done everything to make landlords quit, now Fergus has they say that's wrong as tenants are affected.

    What do they want?   It seems to me they can't have it both ways.

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    Phil you seem to be assuming this bunch of clowns in government would act logically & sensibly:  Never seen such a disorganization incompetent shower in my 71-years....


    I weep for my country, by kids & my grandkids...

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    There would need to be some real work on the reasons for the sec21’s that are issued, there will always be an undeniable need for repossession on many grounds, with regard to tenants being evicted as a result of a landlord selling, the effect could be mitigated in many ways,

    longer notice period

    some financial  redress, maybe a percentage of sale price, part of any capital gains, guranteed return of deposit, covering moving costs. List is almost endless.

    Much of the problem is the lack of available housing in many areas, that can’t be remedied by the landlord that sells.

    As for having to sell with tenant in place, that is just going to drag down the value of tennanted property ( but increase yields for those that choose to buy) any such proposal will see a huge number of landlords deciding to sell before it is enacted.

    I see the authorities goal as being getting rid of the small landlords and professionalising the sector, other changes will be phased in as this professionalism emerges and rental businesses become full time long term enterprises, part of the benefit to landlords will be that such businesses ill have much better lobbying powers at central and localgovernment levels.

    At what size that becomes a viable option will depend on the standards the sector is expected to achieve ( ie, permanent office open to tenants, on call repair/maintenace , welfare/support training, cpd, ) all,to be provided directly by the landlord and not via agents/ providers. All very unlikely in the forseeable future but easy ways of forcing businesses to attain ever greater critical mass to survive, or else leave the sector.

    At some point there will be concerted efforts to identify the “ rogue” element that operate outside of all legislation, probably encoraged by councils being able to retain much of the  cash/assets raised from punitive fines.

    The other more unlikely outcome, is a truly huge programme of social housebuilding and or incentives for the insrance/pension companies to  hoover up existing stock but more likely build for a new “big business” rented sector.

    My plan was to keep my portfolio until i passed on or was totally incapable of managing it, the income / capital seeing me to the end of my days in reasonable comfort. Seeing as that is hopfully a 30 year plus horizon, i no longer see it happening and instead expect to be choosing the most convenient/efficient way out at a time that leaves sufficient capital to see my days out.

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    I don't think S21 will be removed, I think there is sufficient understanding that it is the AST and S21 which has allowed the PRS to grow.

    I do think landlords may be required to compensate tenants to assist them in the costs of moving, perhaps the equivalent of one month's rent and possibly increasing the notice period to three months with the tenant being able to move anytime after notice has been served without needing to pay rent for the remaining notice period if they have moved out.

    I also don't think that S24 will be reversed or reduced in anyway, I think it more likely that the remaining tax relief will be removed.

    I see the growth or property funds which allow the public to invest in BTL rather than direct investment.

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    I agree with you

    BTL is going to change from an investment to a bussinss

    and yes S 24 will stay

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    Learn Change and Adapt ?????

    All comments are for casual information purposes only. If you wish to rely on any advice I have given please ensure you obtain independent specialist advice from a third party. No liability is accepted for comments made.


    It would be utterly perverse (but unfortunately not a surprise) if government, after pulling all the levers to make landlords exit the market (S24)

    and not invest in new or replacement properties (stamp duty) - then erected bigger barriers to LL trying to exit the market by removing S21.

    Even in Scotland a LL can still evict to sell. (with 12 weeks / 84 days notice)


    If a government did try to remove S21 without at least providing similar grounds to Scotland, then we as an industry need to fight back with a single concerted legal battle

    -too often in the past we've been divided and conquered.


    (and equally perverse that the Wilson's get bad press for the way they operate as LL (at least some of which seems justified) and then bad press when they decide to stop being LL )

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    DISCLAIMER just my personal opinion - for legal advice consult a qualified professional grown-up.

    Perversities all round - so true!  Perhaps a new name - Perverse Rented Sector?! Smile

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    As a landlord who is somewhat on the fringes of landlording, it seems apparent that there is too little unity between us landlords, yet the anti landlord groups appear to fully support each other.

    Although I am in the process of incorporating (for the legal benefits more than any tax reasons) I don't consider myself professional, at best a knowledgeable amateur. I don't feel any external pressure to professionalise and amongst my peers (accidental and amateur landlords) I don't see any inclination to change.

    I will continue as a lodger/resident landlord, I've ventured into commercial and am looking at short term lets and/or supported living. S21 and S24 are not a direct issue.

    Most of what I do puts me in the category of 'not a proper landlord' by some who consider themselves professionals, yet I see a positive future. To those that are anti landlord it makes no difference, I'm still a landlord.

    In my opinion the unified anti landlord views will always prevail whilst the landlords views are fragmented and that is possibly the greatest weakness in the PRS, whatever you consider that to actually be.

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    There is the social landlord and the private landlord.

    The private landlord is not a charity. It cannot afford to work for no pay or not for profit and donate anymore goodwill (not inc.rogue LL's)  than it already has.

    The current housing minister has a cheek for the sense of entitlement they pervade to still take from us and expect Us to give even more back. It isn't working, the scales are too far tipped.

    Give and take. It is just take, take, take. If s.21 goes there will be a reaction before the implementation and even less properties availiable for rent.

    Note how many tenants are seeking properties on this forum . Although I have only been a member for a year, I haven't seen any post to sepf advertise before.

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