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  • Rent-to-Rent

    Are all property education courses a scam?

    I have some time on my hands to pursue something different. I have enough money to live on so no problems short term, but I'm hoping to branch out into something new and as I don't have masses of money spare, rent to rent seems appealing - well it did before I read the samuel leeds thread...

    It seems to me that everyone is offering training on this subject but they all contain big upsells. Other than Samuel as he seems to be known on here, I've enjoyed the book and videos by Jacquie Edwards, the American lady who lives in Oxford and has built up a very good rent 2 rent business..or so it seems.

    There's also Neil McCoy-ward who's sales book is fantastic and he also offers courses on rent to rent including legal documents. His course is £497 over 2 days if done online. I am tempted but also very, very aware that he also could be a scam artist despite nothing coming up on Google about him .

    Any advice much appreciated .

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    No they are not all a scam

    But the majority of  the education you need is on here and its free

    There will be 100 courses out there . Some will offer good value . Many  wont

    The people who get caught out with the bad ones are often the infatuated ones

    Just like your first love -

    The happy chemicals  - endorphins dopamine oxytocin and serotonin flood your body

    Poor decisions are sometimes made because of it

    Being  infatuated with property that`s fine  . But don`t part with cash at this vulnerable time

    Wait until your relationship with it matures then decide


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    Jonathan Clarke. http://www.buytoletmk.com


    The real issue is the expectations gap. These is no qualification standard with these courses so marketing promises the earth bit practice fails to meet up to those lofty expectations. Education is good but how clear is it that you are getting what you want/need. The less clear the greater the risk of dissatisfaction.

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    Tax advisor and mortgage broker

    stuart@johnsonsca.com

    02039077022

    I think it’s a good idea to go on a course, but don’t pay too much for it. Couple of hundred quid max.  Use your common sense. There will be angles and ideas that you hadn’t thought of, pick up as much as you can and do it yourself!

    And having listened to many people go on about the marvels of rent to rent, I just can’t see how it can work, but maybe it’s just me.

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    We are living in the digital age, where pretty much everything you need to know is at your fingertips by way of the internet, the majority of all the information you will need is free. Property Tribes is a good example and in my opinion one of the best resources for landlords, the forum is very active.  I tend to lurk and read through posts, not post too much myself, as usually I don't have much to add.

    From what I have read about other people going to these courses, they usually don't offer any special insight.  At best I guess they could be viewed as motivational talks covering easily found information (found on the internet for free).  The other aspect that might be of value would be meeting the other people attending perhaps.  But I don't think that those are good enough reasons to pay some of the exorbitant fees that some of these courses charge.

    My advice would be research with all the free information available, ask questions on forums like this and if you are still missing something don't just find the answer you are looking for and be content.  Keep researching and get lots of different information relating to anything you want to know.

    These courses offer no interest to me, other than from a curiosity point of view, because I cannot really see why people use them.  I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of the most successful landlords who post here have never been to any of these types of courses and some of them built their portfolios before the internet was even a thing.  I can say without a doubt that without the internet I wouldn't be a landlord, so my hat is off to those who worked it out before the internet was even a thing.

    In fact as I wrote that it occurred to me that maybe some of the landlords who have had portfolio's over 20 years, may have used a course.  Before the internet was a thing I can see more value in going to one.

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    Finding the right tenant, for the right place, at the right price is the key to success (not necessarily in that order).

    That's the toughest part about property, which I don't think can be taught on a course.

    Ask 100 people on here their right tenant, right place, and right price and you will probably get 100 different answers.

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    Hi Wayne and welcome to the tribe.

    No, not all courses are a scam, but you need to develop the due diligence skills to determine the good from the bad.

    There are four different things to consider here:

    1.  The viability of Rent to Rent (or whatever strategy is being promoted) as a strategy.  Does it work in reality and in the current market conditions?

    2.  Why people who claim to be so successful at it wish to create more and more competitors for themselves and spend large amounts of their life in a training room or running a marketing machine.  They must really love their job, right?!

    3.  Whether paying for expensive education will make you wealthy, as most of these courses claim ...  (But if R2R is not a viable strategy, then surely you would be wasting your money?).

    4.  How much money did successful delegates giving testimonials (or indeed the trainer) start out with?  If they had a £1million inheritance, then their chances of success were far greater than someone who had to borrow money or put the cost of the course on a credit card in order to be able to attend.

    5.  For "ownership: strategies, did the individuals in question qualify to access BTL finance?  If they did, they will be able to scale up far more quickly than someone who does not qualify for finance.

    Authentic education is very important.  You can never know it all and you can never learn less.  Education helps mitigate risk. 

    By authentic, I mean education that:

    1.  Is provided by someone who has been undertaking the strategy for a minimum of 10 years and been through the "down" times as well as the good times.

    2.  Does not have a sales agenda or up-sell agenda behind it.  i.e. you are being given information in your best interests, that is tailored to your personal financial situation and goals, and that will advise you of the risks as well as the rewards.

    3.  That teaches strategies that work in the current market conditions and with the current financial products and that you, as an individual, can realistically achieve with your personal starting point.

    The problem with the property education sector, or, as I prefer to call it, "wealth creation" sector is that it is completely unregulated and big claims can be made.  When things turn sour there are very few routes of redress and Property Tribes has heard from people who have collectively lost millions of pounds.  These stories can be found in our Landlords in Distress category and there are a lot of learnings to be had by reading them.

    By the way, the word "property" could be replaced with "gold", "bitcoin", or any other type of investment.

    Only today on facebook, I read an advert where someone who came into the sector as a trainer around 2 years ago having been on a "train the trainer" course, describes himself as one of the UK's top business entrepreneurs having previously been involved with multi-million pound businesses and claims that he has a personal portfolio of over £12 million!  

    When I did my due diligence on him, there was no shred of evidence of wealth or previous success whatsoever. He has created a very good back-story that is impossible to verify, but most newbies do not understand how to undertake due diligence and they are happy to believe it because it means it might be possible for them too.

    As always, theory is altogether more different that practical experience.  Would you like to be flown in an aeroplane where the pilot has 20 years experience and thousands of hours of flying time, or a plane where the pilot read a book about being a pilot and had never touched the controls or overcome problems in-flight?

    A property training business is likely far more lucrative than running a property portfolio (when comparing "like for like" time frames) and probably a lot quicker to scale as you can buy your place into training networks, systems, and marketing blue-prints so that you are an "instant guru".  You don't need much capital to set up a training business and with facebook and access to other free social channels, you have a ready-made audience of people who will want to believe your claims, so you don't even need to factor in much marketing spend.  The entry levels of money required to become a trainer are far lower than funds needed to start investing in property.

    The bottom line is that you DO need money for property - just like any other business.  And like any other business, if you do not have money to back you up, you are putting yourself at far greater risk.

    Even if you undertake R2R which is claimed to be a "no money needed" strategy, you still need money to set the property up, to be compliant, to pay for repairs and maintenance, to pay the rent to the landlord if you are unable to rent out all the rooms.  If a boiler needs replacing, as a for instance, that can be £1200 to £3K.

    In my opinion (and of course I may be biased), one of the of the best places to find authentic education is where there is a "hive mind" like a landlord forum i.e. multiple views and opinions expressed, not a singularity that gives you their version.

    Another is undertaking professional training with a trade body like the Residential Landlords Association or ARLA.

    Another is finding someone who has achieved what you want to achieve and asking them if they will mentor you.  Note:  They probably do not offer training services!

    However, none of these methods will promise you that you will be a millionaire in a year with no effort, so they are unlikely to attract someone who is seeking easy riches.

    "Selling the dream" is a multi-million pound industry and rife with scammers who use sophisticated marketing techniques to relieve naive and gullible people of their money.

    You may want to choose to see the irony in someone who claims to be financially free, standing in a dingy hotel room in Bradford on a Thursday evening, trying to sell you a training course.

    If they were really that successful and wealthy, wouldn't they be spending time with their loved ones, doing things they enjoy, and perhaps doing some philanthropic deeds?

    I can't imagine anyone actively choosing presenting a pitch to a room of strangers to being with their family.  Therefore, there must be a very compelling reason for that and that is that they can make a lot of money from such an activity.  Nothing wrong in that of course, but it is the reality, and not unreasonable to suggest that it is not the airy fairy happy clappy reasons trainers typically give.

    A lot of money is made through property education, but it is more likely to be the trainers who are coining it in, creating their property dream and financial future at the expense of their students imho.

    I am personally not against training courses - I have been on many and continue to go on them but CAVEAT EMPTOR and do your due diligence.

    Further insights here:

    Buying property with none of your own money 

    How to do due diligence on a property mentor

    How to use Companies House for due diligence

    Due diligence or die: Lessons learned from the Madoff disaster

    The above links empower you to undertake your own due diligence.  I would like to propose that you do this for the two trainers you mention and report back your findings here.

    This is far more empowering for you than me doing it for you, but if you get stuck, I am sure the community and myself will assist.

    P.s..  A good place to start is their company registration number.  By law, this has to be displayed in a prominent position on their website along with their Privacy Notice.  If you cannot find these, that is an immediate "red flag" imho. 

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    Why do you need to go on a course to buy a house and rent it out?

    What is it exactly you would like to learn?

    Let us know and it could probably be answered here within the hour without you being charged any money.

    Even if not a scam, paid courses will be of poor quality as "those who can DO, those who can't TEACH". Serious business people don't spend their weekends teaching drivel to strangers in a Travel Lodge, so if someone is offering you these courses, it's an indication that they're a bit of a dick.

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    Hmmm food question. Is education valuable? Always. Is the education on offer valuable? It depends. 


    I’d rather put my money into my business & develop my own approach. But... if you really can’t learn another way then maybe it’s worth it.


    Just be warned. You won’t have a competitive advantage if you do it the way everyone else does it!

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    Old saying: "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".

    Property education courses (your expression) can be valuable.  e.g. from RLA,

    https://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/courses/...demy.shtml

    NLA

    https://landlords.org.uk/events/product_course

    or LaS

    https://www.landlordaccreditationscotland.com/courses/

    or, (hush, people might be offended..) Shelter...

    https://england.shelter.org.uk/professio...r_training

    - and no doubt some other decent suppliers..

    "Rent to Rent" courses do not, IMHO, exist.  What there are however are loads of snake-oil salesmen charging people to listen to their puffed-up guff in which they usually try to flog you something else.  Others may hold alternative views.

    Best wishes all!

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    Courses can offer information but are far too short to develop understanding of the underlying issues and complexities

    I fear many are close to being a scam in reality. By that I mean many appear to be simply get rich quick schemes. I know a friend of my son paid £700 to go on one and the content was extremely 'optimistic' with a great deal not covered.

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