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  • Property Training/Mentoring

    In contemplation of the alluring upsell

    I recently attended a seminar it was hosted by an incredibly successful property entrepreneur who's name would be unfair to reveal.

    I have taken a rather a negative view of him since. He told the room that he would only be giving 3 hours of his time to them individually BUT, not to worry because he has on hand "a team" that can guide them through this journey of wealth and financial freedom.

    I am curious to learn from people that have gone to a seminar, been 'caught in the moment', and parted with their cash in return of a promised tutelage to make them wealthy and successful.

    I calculated that day the entrepreneur made £300,000 within the space of half an hour. The tactic was unbelievable. I thought then and remain unchanged in my thoughts - "Am I the only one that thinks this is just ludicrous?"

    He paced up and down the room whilst explaining that there was one lucky winner in the room.

    The suspense was building and then all of a sudden with a histrionic outburst "YOU THERE," pointed a finger at who was later revealed to be a man that parted with a large amount of his personal money.

    The host enticed this very excitable man onto the stage as the room applauded thinking that he was a very lucky winner of a program that was unachievable to most. The man was told to read from the slides in front of him all that was available. Mentoring, Attendance a VIP seminars, Written materials. This excitable man was now so overwhelmed that it reduced him to tears.

    The host turned to us and said "nobody should have anything for completely free" turning back to the man on stage the host tells him "we have decided you can have all of this for the bargain price of £7500" . That is when a 10 second timer appeared on the slides and the host pressured the man in view of us the audience "before the clock stops are you going to take this chance of a lifetime?".

    The man was no longer crying; instead looked like a rabbit in headlights. He conceded and was quickly taken off by an assistant to a PDQ machine.

    I couldn't help think that he was perhaps too embarrassed to say no. What followed was even more of an insult to the seemingly lucky winner.

    The host asks the audience "which one of you would like to have the opportunity that this guy has just had?" I didn't see this as anything other than a complete scam. I assumed that people would share my view - I was wrong; they were all flinging their hands up shouting "pick me, pick me" I pressed my hands firmly on my knees and thought "don't even think about picking me, I am not being victim to this".

    The host tells the audience "those with your hands in the air, come and join me here on stage". Once on stage the eager audience positioned themselves at the front like the were queuing for lifeboats aboard the Titanic.

    The host paced up and down, hand on chin, with an air of contemplation on who would be the winner of spending £7500 with the waiting assistant and her PDQ machine. He announces " I have never done this before, but I have decided all of you are eligible for this amazing offer".

    They were rushing in their droves and queuing for the PDQ machine. The host turns to remaining few in the room. "Sadly you are the losers in this". "Really?" I thought. They have just paid £7,500 each for 3 hours of your time and one of your assistants who frankly nobody has heard of will be in regular contact with them.

    If you are one of those lucky winners reading this please do share your success story. I would really like to know how you viewed the experience. Am I the loser?


    A fool and their money are soon parted.

    This has been going on since humans were created. Some of the time it is not easy to know who the greater fool is.

    The flip side is many of those who signed up might do very well relative to what will happen if they just saved the money.

    Think about university. Who knows what will happen if they spend the money and three years full time (or longer for Scotland and the USA) dedicating themself to a series of classes and homework.

    I have no idea who was speaking, the quality of their program or anything else. One reason auctions have people in the room bidding at the same time is because do get caught up in the moment. Similar for lots of social problems where people succumb to any number of bad decisions.

    Are you the loser? No idea as we can not tell what might have happened if you signed up and made a success of it. It really does not matter what the promoter makes if the students do well. If the students do not do well, is it the promoter's problem or the students?

    John Corey 

    I host the London Real Estate Meet on the 2nd Tuesday of every month since 2005. If you have never been before, email me for the 'new visitor' link.


    Also happy to chat on the phone. Pay It Forward; my way of giving back through sharing. Click on the link: PropertyFortress.com/Ask-John to book a time. I will call you at the time you selected. Nothing to buy. Just be prepared with your questions so we can use the 20 minutes wisely.

    Basically this guy was just a damn good salesman.
    Can't knock the skill.
    He could probably sell snow to Eskimos!!?
    His product though is a fraudulent propostion
    I went to them, saw through them and have learnt far more just by reading posts here from the expert members.
    I think the old truism that there is no such thing as a FREE LUNCH still stands.
    Any fool can be a property millionaire, but being a property millionaire in EQUITY, now that is a completely different proposition!!!!!
    Hi Carla,

    Thank you for the post.

    Could you just clarify if this guy claimed to be a property expert?

    What did he claim to have achieved?

    What makes me angry is that NLP is being used here by the sound of it.

    I call it "ra ra". Get people hyped up and into a state of nervous excitement.

    It is so wrong that NLP - developed as a force for good - is used in this context.

    You are not a loser at all imho. You maintained a sensible view, asked yourself a few pertinent questions, and realised that something did not quite add up.

    You are actually a winner, because you have come here and warned people of these hard pressure selling tactics. It may stop others falling prey to these people. You may also learn something here that helps you move forwards in your property business.

    I wrote my post about Property Shark Bait in February 2009 .. so it saddens me that people are still falling prey to these sharks without even doing a little bit of due diligence before parting from their hard earned cash.

    Here was my original post. It rings a lot of bells with your particular experience.

    Top 10 Ways to know there is a shark in the water

    1. BIG, BIG CLAIMS: "we've made hundreds of ordinary people millionaires, we're doing hundreds of deals, we're holding millions of pounds worth of property, we're doing 20 deals a week, promises of huge returns, tenants waiting, selling fast, buy now to avoid missing out .....". Take it all with a gallon of salt.

    2. PROMISES OF GET RICH QUICK/NO EFFORT INVOLVED: "it takes no effort, become a millionaire in one year, it's No Money Down with £25K cash back, we do it all for you, all you need to do is sign papers, Joe Bloggs started with £500.00 and now he has 600 properties ...."

    3. A WEBSITE THAT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS KNOCKED UP AS PART OF A SCHOOL PROJECT: if the company is as wealthy and successful as they say, then surely they would have a professional website that reflected their brand?. Look for spelling and grammar mistakes as these are a major indicator of a non-professional organisation IMHO.4.

    ARROGANCE: when asked to supply in-depth information, asked challenging questions, etc, these sharks tend to turn aggressive and try and bully you.5. INCONSISTENCY IN THEIR STORY: Many of these sharks change their story to suit whatever they happen to be doing, or whoever they happen to be preying on. Do due diligence on line and check that their story is consistent.

    6. PROMISES OF "SECRETS", "A SECRET SYSTEM" : there are no "secrets" in property investment. All the information is freely available on line. There is no secret system for creating wealth from property other than hard work and educating yourself how to do so.

    7. SPECIAL OFFER TODAY/EXCLUSIVE PROGRAMME/ONLY A FEW PLACES LEFT: In the current economic conditions, no one can afford to turn down business. The above are just ploys to make you think that it is urgent to part with your money. Sharks often talk of you "missing out" if you don't book on, buy the deal NOW etc.

    8. LARGE SUMS OF MONEY REQUIRED UPFRONT: You should never pay for promises. You should only pay for actual results. Be extremely wary of handing over large sums of money upfront. At the very least, the shark should get you vetted for lending purposes before taking your money. Once a shark has your money, it is very unlikely that you will ever see it again.

    9. YOU HAVE TO USE THE SHARK'S BROKER AND SOLICITOR: By law, all property transactions have to be transparent and subject to full disclosure. On that basis, you should be able to use any broker or solicitor.

    10. SHARKS ASSOCIATE WITH OTHER PEOPLE OF A BAD REPUTATION: With the transparency afforded by the Web, you can see who is "in bed" with who. Check out if the company is working with someone who has a bad/poor reputation. This reflects badly on them. See who's schemes they are an affiliate of, see who they promote or network with. These are all indications of the values of the company or person.If you come across any of the above signs, my advice is swim like crazy!

    From your description, I sense a certain desperation about this person. Maybe business is not as good as they make out, and they need some extra cash to keep them afloat?

    There is a cooling off period after paying with a credit card, so maybe some of the victims backed out in the cold light of day? I am sure they did not get a refund automatically though, if at all. Once these people have your money, 9 times out of 10, they won't give it back ... or probably can't because they have already spent it.
    Seems these gurus from Glenn to Penton Taylor to Rick Otton are all part of the same clan and just hold all of the same info passing it round and round making themselves a lot of money! lol ~ Comment from another thread.

    I think you could also add "passing around the same people" to that comment.

    Most of these people have affiliate links with one another and share their databases.

    A number of high profile property "networking meetings" are the entrance for newbies into this web. The majority of the speakers are all part of the "wealth creation" set and newbies get put on the mailing lists and exposed to all these "experts". Phil Martin was touted by the Berkshire Property Meet as a property genius, and many people trusted their recommendation. All the names mentioned above have been advocated by the BPM.

    I have been along to a number of these meetings and they are most just a huge pitch fest.

    From the front of one room they said "pop over to see Hanif Khan, he's selling leads tonight for a fiver". That said it all to me. If the lead was any good, would someone sell it for £5 ... candy and baby spring to mind. I made my excuses and left.

    Despite the Phil Martin debacle, these meetings still have the same revolving door of speakers so clearly have not learned their lesson... but I notice that they have conveniently removed Phil Martin from their speaker list.

    Glenn Armstrong
    Marc Hogan
    Jim Haliburton
    Vanish Patel
    Parmdeep Vadesha
    Hanif Khan
    John Goodinson
    Paul Shamplina
    Johnny Debt
    Rob Moore
    Mark Homer
    Amer Siddiq
    John Lee
    Rohan Weerasinghe
    Kevin Green
    Steve Bolton
    Dolf De Roos
    Sarah Barrett
    Richard Shepherd
    Shimon Rudich
    Vincent Wong
    Jeremy Gilley

    Masters of the alluring upsell, one and all?

    Again, I am not criticising education or networking - I believe both are vital to property success.

    Some of these people do teach good stuff, but they should distance themselves from the portfolio builders and some of the other less reputable people they associate with, as it could rub off on them in a negative way I think.
    It would be intersting to know the scripts these people use.
    I'm sure informed tribesters like Lisa Orme and others would be able to shoot down in flames the majority of the suggestions these 'Gurus' come out with.
    Lisa must on occasion see some of the suckered clients, hopefully in time to stop them making severe mistakes.
    I know for one none of these people EVER mentions the major issues that face LL to collect rent, evicyion etc,etc.
    And yet this is fundamental to the business model.
    If punters were informed as to the actual and continuing risks regarding rental receipts most punters would run a mile!!!
    These 'gurus' take timely rental recipts with NO voids as a given.
    In the real world we know this is not the case.
    When I think back to all the property marketing pitches (wealth creation pitches) I have listened to, I am struggling to remember even one who even said the word "Landlord".

    When we become Landlords, we have to comply with over 70 rules, regulations, and government statutes and we are solely responsible for our tenants in our property. That responsibility cannot be divested to ANYONE - not even a lettings agent on a fully managed basis.

    Tenants are de-humanised during these pitch fests. They are just the rent that is going to make you R-I-C-H!!!!

    Related reading: Questions to ask yourself before becoming a Landlord.

    The wealth creation industry is unregulated and therefore there are no standards, no codes of practice, and no come back.

    There is a current example here of someone who was promised the world and has now been landed with a virtually worthless property.

    When Lisa and I warned against Phil Martin we were viciously attacked and called "dream stealers". A campaign is regularly waged against PT as being negative and anti this and anti that.

    As far as I am concerned, PT is is not anti anything ... but it will always be pro the truth.

    It is much needed when property is such an overwhelming topic and so many people involved have so many differing and conflicting agendas.
    The naivety of some people continually baffles me. It also makes me extremely angry that the wealth creation guru's seem to be the only people who get a lot wealthier from these sorts of events.


    Mark Alexander

    Mark Alexander - Property118.com
    Twitter: @iAmALandlord
    (06-08-2012 10:55 AM)Mark Alexander Wrote:  The naivety of some people continually baffles me.

    Why do the naive stay naive?

    Is there much more people here on PT can do to raise awareness?

    When we become too strident we appear as opinionated folks who are closed minded rather than people who have real wisdom to share.

    If people want to believe smoking and drinking is not going to put them in the grave early, should we care? If fools and their money are soon parted, just how far should anyone go to protect them from themselves?

    John Corey 

    I host the London Real Estate Meet on the 2nd Tuesday of every month since 2005. If you have never been before, email me for the 'new visitor' link.


    Also happy to chat on the phone. Pay It Forward; my way of giving back through sharing. Click on the link: PropertyFortress.com/Ask-John to book a time. I will call you at the time you selected. Nothing to buy. Just be prepared with your questions so we can use the 20 minutes wisely.

    Wisdom from John.

    The thing is, I was naive once. I have been sucked in, done duff deals, etc. Related reading: My big, FAT, property mistake.

    Our strident opinions are bourne out of trying to stop others making the same mistakes as we did!!

    If we do not talk about it in a open manner, how can people learn? It is indeed hard to get the balance right.

    There are some who will never learn, and these are the people you will find attending endless seminars and believing that they are on the road to instant riches.

    Everyone has their own journey to go and we cannot dictate that. But we can provide signposts and nudge them a little bit if they are going down the wrong track.
    Hi Vanessa,
    I am just disappointed that Property Networking Forums - that could be so useful to educate and support genuine property investors (who don't want tenants) and landlords (who do want tenants) - are being used as a front to sell all sorts of "get rich quick" schemes.

    I visited a Property Forum last month that had a presentation on "Internet Banner Advertising" and how this could be used, passively, to generate enough income to fund the next "property investment" profit. A quick search in Google revealed that the recommended company is almost certainly a scam!

    Another Property Forum was advocating spending thousands of pounds on education so that I could give up work and live off my property wealth. It seems to me that the only people getting wealthy from these schemes are the people giving them!

    Finally, I went to a National Landlords Association Forum last month and had an absolutely fantastic time. No-one was trying to sell me anything (except membership of the NLA - LOL!) and the standard and content and quality of presentation material was brilliant (not one mentoring sales pitch or pyramid selling scheme was discussed) and the attendees were genuine landlords who used the NLA meetings to support their property investment strategies.

    Interestingly - at the NLA meeting - I met a number of people who were selling attendance at their Property Forums ... which, in turn, would have led me to meetings with lots of mentoring sales pitches.

    My advice - join the NLA ..... swerve the rest!