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  • Landlord Resources

    Section 21 Calculator - Possession Date Help Needed

    Recently, the Essex Property Network developed a free Section 21 Calculator to help landlords calculate possession dates for their Section 21 Notices.

    The majority of evictions that fail in court after a Section 21 Notice been issued are because incorrect possession dates have been entered. We want to greatly reduce the chances of this happening to other landlords without it costing them a penny.

    We need your help to test it out and let us know if you come up with any bugs or if you think that we should do anything to improve it.

    You can view the calculator at: http://www.essexpropertynetwork.co.uk/se...alculator/ >>> **MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE READ THE CAVEAT HERE before relying on this or any other calculator**.

    Thanks in advance,
    Cyril Thomas
    Essex Property Network
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/

    Cyril / Platinum Crown

    I see your response to 'Craig' and worry that you ask him if if he agrees with the results.

    The kind of people who need to use a calculator like this will, in many cases, be using it because they don't know how to calculate it for themselves, they will be entirely dependant on the reliability of the app.

    What is more worrying is that you need to ask - the date is patently wrong based on the data your form requests.

    I hesitate to press the 'submit' button for this post, as I know it is critical. Similar tools have been promoted on here before I have notified their owners of problems, to no effect. Maybe it would be an idea to put some sort of disclaimer on the site to protect yourselves if a landlord loses money due to an incorrect s21, 52 facebook likes suggests there may be a number of your s21's out there.

    BTW, your free section 21 notice doesn't comply with statute either.
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    Dave,

    Thank you for your response. For the benefit of anyone else who may view this, below is a copy of the dialogue between Craig and I.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Craig: "Great potential resource - but tested
    Oct '2011 start date , April 2012 end ( so now period ) but tool states tenancy no existed more than 6 months ?"
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    My response: "Thanks for the feedback Craig, I've just seen your results. You entered:

    Date notice served: 14-02-2013.

    Tenancy start date: 14-10-2011.

    Tenancy end date: 13-04-2012.

    and received a Possession date: 15-04-2013.

    Do you agree with the result?

    The tool also informs you if your tenancy has existed for less than 6 months so you can decide which type of Section 21 Notice you need to issue.

    In the future we will try and incorporate a feature that tells you which type of notice to serve."
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Dave, in my response I clearly display the data that Craig inserted along with the results produced. Although I'm confident that the answer is correct I still ask Craig if he agrees with the results as he did initially challenge it.

    Can you confirm if you feel the results are incorrect and if so why? You're input is appreciated.

    In regards to your suggestion of a disclaimer, I agree as it is always good practice to protect yourself.

    To, date I'm yet to receive a set of trial data that produces incorrect results but if you are able to uncover an error in our calculator, I'd encourage you to provide us with the data so we can rectify the error for the many people that the calculator may go onto benefit.
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/

    Cyril, As you know I have already explained why your calculator is not going to produce a valid Possession date on another forum, I have told you why and pointed you to the legislation to prove my point. Another knowledgable property person also provided you with information and gave you a link to an item by Tessa Shepherson, who is without doubt the last word on Landlord and Tenant Law. Dave Reaney is the third property professional to tell you that your calculator is faulty, that I know of, why do you not understand that everyone is trying to help you and to make sure that landlords who need an accurate Possession date do not depend on the information that it will generate because if they do they will fail to regain Possession.

    You say "The majority of evictions that fail in court after a Section 21 Notice been issued are because incorrect possession dates have been entered. We want to greatly reduce the chances of this happening to other landlords without it costing them a penny."

    And this is the point that everyone is trying to make to you, your calculator is making the same mistake that the landlords who fail are making THE WRONG POSSESSION DATE

    Just because your calculator is free and you will put a disclaimer on your site it will not stop a landlord taking legal action against you if he uses it and fails to regain Possession and then finds out that you were warned by three credible people on two separate fora. Please take it down until it is set up to produce the correct information.

    To be clear the fault with your system is that you are not asking the right questions to be able to produce an accurate date, I have explained all this to you on the other forum, this should be easy to correct and I am not at all sure why you are so reluctant to avoid doing it?

    Follow me on Twitter@landlordtweets
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    Follow me on Twitter @landlordtweets
    Mary, again, thank you for your response. Unfortunately, you failed to provide me with the legislation that you are referring to. Your posts are still visible on the other forum. I understand that both you and Dave provide eviction products/services that people pay for and I have no problem with that.

    My issue is that you are not being specific with your reason for being discontent the S21 Calculator. Please kindly provide the legislation that you refer to so that I can make the necessary changes to the calculator.

    My aim is to provide a free resource that can be used to help many people that struggle with possession dates.
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/

    c Cyril I have explained the legal situation on the other forum, I said this

    "I wasn't actually refering to that that particular point but it makes the case very well, thank you. The case being that the tenancy period mentioned in legislation is the rent period and has nothing to do with the tenancy start date. My concern is that the generator does not have the rent period nor the rent due date and therefore cannot not possibly produce a valid S21. I also have concerns that there is no reference to the type of S21 that is being generated ie service within the fixed term or on Stutory Periodic. Cyril Thomas I am not being rude when I say this but this is too important and I really think that you need to take the generator off here until it is accurate, it is dangerous for landlords who may not know the law. A failed S21 can waste months and cost a landlord thousands in lost rent. Would you want to end up in litigation with a landlord who used the generator and failed in court because the Notice was not valid? I am not making a claim I am stating the law and it is not for me to prove to you that I am right it is for you to do your due diligence before offering this system. You have heard this now from two people neither of whom have any vested interest other than to help you."

    You continued to ask me to point you to the legislation. Section 21 Notices are covered in Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 but I am sure that you know that?

    You said "I understand that both you and Dave provide eviction products/services that people pay for and I have no problem with that"

    I do hope that you did not mean to infer that I had any interest other than to protect landlords when I tried to help you, as you have asked on both fora, to ensure that your calculator is accurate. A calculator like this does not compete with a 3 hour seminar on the subject of Possession at a cost of less than £20 and, if it was accurate, would in fact compliment it.

    I am not at all clear why you asked for help on two fora when in fact you seem determined to ignore the help that you have been given by three property professionals

    Follow me on Twitter@landlordtweets
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    Follow me on Twitter @landlordtweets
    Mary, I have fully understood what you have said. The issue that I have as stated on the previous forum is that when creating the section 21 calculator I did take advice from qualified individuals. I would be happy to challenge their advice if you can be specific with your evidence.

    You said:
    " The case being that the tenancy period mentioned in legislation is the rent period and has nothing to do with the tenancy start date. My concern is that the generator does not have the rent period nor the rent due date and therefore cannot not possibly produce a valid S21. I also have concerns that there is no reference to the type of S21 that is being generated ie service within the fixed term or on Stutory Periodic."

    I have simply asked you where in the legislation does it say that the "period" is as you've described it. Although I am no lawyer, I am familiar with S21 of the Housing Act 1988 and I cannot find any reference to the "Period" being calculated the way in which you describe it. I have made it clear on several occasions that if you can provide me with the evidence I will make the necessary changes.

    This sort of scrutiny is exactly what I was looking for when I created this thread but if I am to take your advice, it needs to be backed up by specific evidence.

    As you have specified, if the section 21 calculator was accurate it may actually compliment your seminars so please do respond with the required evidence. I'd be happy for you to use the calculator at your seminars once you're happy that it is up to standard.
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/

    If you had Googled "what is the tenancy period for a Section 21 Notice" you would have come up with several pages to prove that the information I have given you is correct but to save your time here are just some of the places that comfirm this fairly basic information from VERY credible sources. You told me on the other forum that your calculator is set up to give the correct date for a Section 21 4 (a)

    Another major hurdle relates to notices served pursuant to section 21(4)(a) Housing Act 1988. It is easy to get the date wrong, where the fixed term runs from different dates to the rent payment date.
    Source https://blog.painsmith.co.uk/2012/11/09/t...1-notices/

    'Section 21 notices'

    If your landlord uses the shorthold ground to evict you, the notice is often called a 'Section 21 notice'. To be valid, the notice must:
    be in writing
    be at least two months long (or the amount of time between rent payments, whichever is longer)
    end on the last day of a rental period
    state that it is being issued under Section 21 of the Housing Act 1988.
    Source https://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice...ld_tenants

    When the fixed term ends tenancies automatically become Periodic Tenancies unless a further fixed term is agreed between the parties and a new agreement signed (the period being determined by the rent payment times - e.g. monthly if the rent is paid monthly)

    Source https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/section-21-notices.htm

    If the tenancy was periodic or the fixed term has expired before the notice is given, the date specified must be the last day of a rental period.[/u] Therefore if the tenancy is a monthly tenancy and the rental day is the 15th of the month, the date specified must be the 14th of a subsequent month at least 2 months after the date of service.

    Source https://www.propertyhawk.co.uk/index.php...ble&id=136

    I do not give advice, I am not insured to do so, I give accurate information which I can always back up but I would have thought that you would have preferred to check my information yourself as part of your due diligance.

    Follow me on Twitter@landlordtweets
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    Mary, unfortunately, again you have not provided with any specific legislation to back up your definition of "period". I appreciate you taking the time out to provide me with all of those links but they do not prove your point.

    In your initial post you asked me to refer to S21 of the Housing Act 1988 and I responded by asking you to be specific because I cannot find any reference to your claims. I'm not intentionally being difficult, I am just asking you to be specific with your reference to legislation. Credible third party websites can be useful but they are not what is required in this circumstance.

    I've also said from the start that I am happy for you to contact me directly if you would prefer to do so.
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/

    I really do give up.

    I wonder how long it will be before a landlord uses your calculator and fails to regain Possession. Even a disclaimer may not work if that landlord becomes aware that three property professionals warned you that it was giving the wrong date and you failed to change it.

    Vanessa I wonder if you could please ask Tessa to post to confirm that the tenancy period referred to in Section 21 (4) (a) of the Housing Act 1988 is the rent period not the occupancy period. If Tessa cannot convince Cyril there is no saving him

    Follow me on Twitter@landlordtweets
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    Follow me on Twitter @landlordtweets
    Mary, if you are so confident about what you are saying (and I'm not doubting that you are) I don't know why you don't just quote the legislation so that I can make the necessary changes. If someone else quotes supporting legislation I would be only too glad to make the changes.

    Either way, thank you for your contribution.
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    Kind regards,
    Cyril Thomas

    Platinum Crown

    M: +44 (0)7949 440 089 
    T: +44 (0)1206 705 555

    http://www.platinumcrown.co.uk/